Mentioning literary doubles gets you immunity
April 19, 2018 9:17 PM Subscribe
Russian Authors I Have Never Technically Lied About Yet Always Feel Uncomfortable Discussing: A Series Of Frenzied Internal Monologue -- The eternal, internal debate, waged at Daniel Mallory Ortberg's The Shatner Chatner. Ortberg previously, and previously, and previously and...
Giving up on Russian novels is my favorite part of tidying up before moving.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 10:27 PM on April 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by knuckle tattoos at 10:27 PM on April 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
I liked "The Brothers Karamazov". Then again, I also thought "Dream of the Red Chamber/The Song of the Stone" (all 2,500 pages of the goddamn thing) to be pretty engaging, thought Infinite Jest was a fun read, and am currently re-reading "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". I may just like long books. Probably a side effect of all those fantasy novels I read growing up convincing me that if the hardcover version of the book cannot reliably stop a 9mm bullet it is of questionable worth.
As far as the article goes: Bulgakov is easy, just talk about Pilate, then segue into "Jesus Christ Superstar". In most cases everyone will secretly thank you for bringing the topic around to musical theater because everyone has the same underlying anxiety when they read 'literature': "My reaction to this is neither erudite nor enlightened enough". If one or two people try to bring it back to Russian novels, it can be dealt with as you would any other minor social faux pas. If the entire group wants to talk about Russian novels again, politely excuse yourself, and maybe douse the coats heaped on the mattress in naphtha and set them on fire before you go.
Thinking on it more, there are three scenarios in discussing Russian novels, or any other piece of big important literature.
One- You are the only one really interested. Just watch for people looking at you with the "We were talking about what's good on Netflix you fucking lunatic, why are you discussing 'Dead Souls'?" look. When you see the look, let it drop.
Two- You are surrounded by people who, like yourself, are floating a battleship of pretension upon a puddle of actual knowledge and insight. Plunge forward with whatever shite you like. If challenged "Huh, I had never considered that. That's a really interesting perspective, but what about [additional shite]" and occasional appreciative follow ups and head nods will see you clear of any danger.
Three- You are surrounded by people of actual knowledge, interest, and erudition on the topic at hand. They will be too busy dealing with the impromptu coat/mattress bonfire in the master bedroom to think less of you for your lack of knowledge.
All in all, don't worry so much, and always carry a 1L bottle of Naphtha and a lighter to a social engagement.
posted by Grimgrin at 12:09 AM on April 20, 2018 [27 favorites]
As far as the article goes: Bulgakov is easy, just talk about Pilate, then segue into "Jesus Christ Superstar". In most cases everyone will secretly thank you for bringing the topic around to musical theater because everyone has the same underlying anxiety when they read 'literature': "My reaction to this is neither erudite nor enlightened enough". If one or two people try to bring it back to Russian novels, it can be dealt with as you would any other minor social faux pas. If the entire group wants to talk about Russian novels again, politely excuse yourself, and maybe douse the coats heaped on the mattress in naphtha and set them on fire before you go.
Thinking on it more, there are three scenarios in discussing Russian novels, or any other piece of big important literature.
One- You are the only one really interested. Just watch for people looking at you with the "We were talking about what's good on Netflix you fucking lunatic, why are you discussing 'Dead Souls'?" look. When you see the look, let it drop.
Two- You are surrounded by people who, like yourself, are floating a battleship of pretension upon a puddle of actual knowledge and insight. Plunge forward with whatever shite you like. If challenged "Huh, I had never considered that. That's a really interesting perspective, but what about [additional shite]" and occasional appreciative follow ups and head nods will see you clear of any danger.
Three- You are surrounded by people of actual knowledge, interest, and erudition on the topic at hand. They will be too busy dealing with the impromptu coat/mattress bonfire in the master bedroom to think less of you for your lack of knowledge.
All in all, don't worry so much, and always carry a 1L bottle of Naphtha and a lighter to a social engagement.
posted by Grimgrin at 12:09 AM on April 20, 2018 [27 favorites]
Oh come on, bullshitting on Nabokov is easy, you have like three film versions of Lolita to derail into (and if you can't derail lit types onto Kubrick, something is weird), PLUS if all else fails you just mention how Terribly Wrong he was about Jane Austen and watch everyone compete to shout at him over it.
(Nabokov was wrong in every word he said about Jane Austen. Including 'and' and 'the'.)
posted by Rush-That-Speaks at 1:34 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
(Nabokov was wrong in every word he said about Jane Austen. Including 'and' and 'the'.)
posted by Rush-That-Speaks at 1:34 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I never feel more like Holden Caulfield than right after an arthouse film, when everyone rushes open their theory holes to give their date their brilliant interpretation of what they just saw.
This reminds me of that feeling.
posted by thelonius at 2:24 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
This reminds me of that feeling.
posted by thelonius at 2:24 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'd advise turning the conversation to philosophy, but then you'd have to have read philosophy.
posted by oddman at 4:00 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by oddman at 4:00 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
“I don't read novels. I prefer good literary criticism. That way you get both the novelists' ideas as well as the critics' thinking. With fiction I can never forget that none of it really happened, that it's all just made up by the author.”
posted by leotrotsky at 5:09 AM on April 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:09 AM on April 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
An extremely accurate moment:
“I feel like all of these guys have written a short story called Diary of a Madman.”
“That does feel right, actually.”
“About like, a government inspector who briefly meets a woman named Sophy and then has a conversation about God with a man named Ilyas in a tavern and then is driven mad by the sight of an overcoat from a long-forgotten farm of his youth.”
I read a number of Russian novels like a good English major but the only one I liked was War and Peace. However there is no way to mention that in polite conversation without sounding like I'm just trying to prove/show off that I read all of War and Peace, so I don't talk about it. I shall never mention it again.
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:44 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
“I feel like all of these guys have written a short story called Diary of a Madman.”
“That does feel right, actually.”
“About like, a government inspector who briefly meets a woman named Sophy and then has a conversation about God with a man named Ilyas in a tavern and then is driven mad by the sight of an overcoat from a long-forgotten farm of his youth.”
I read a number of Russian novels like a good English major but the only one I liked was War and Peace. However there is no way to mention that in polite conversation without sounding like I'm just trying to prove/show off that I read all of War and Peace, so I don't talk about it. I shall never mention it again.
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:44 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
As someone who basically reads only Russian novels (with an occasional break for the latest Zadie Smith or something), can I just point out that you guys are giving in to and perpetuating a lazy stereotype on the order of "Russians, they're all drunks, amirite"? Russian literature does not consist of War and Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, and a few Chekhov plays. It is as various as any other; there are long books, short books, funny books, sad books, anything you could possibly want. Yes, I know, the names are unusual, but somehow that doesn't stop you from enjoying Game of Thrones, does it? If you tried War and Peace and couldn't get through it, that's fine, nobody can enjoy everything. But please stop with the "Russian novels, amirite?" shtick; it's ignorant and adds to the world's store of pointless prejudice.
posted by languagehat at 6:20 AM on April 20, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 6:20 AM on April 20, 2018 [32 favorites]
All in all, don't worry so much, and always carry a 1L bottle of Naphtha and a lighter to a social engagement.
“Any time I had a problem, I threw a Molotov cocktail and, boom, I had a different problem." --Jason Mendoza
posted by praemunire at 6:35 AM on April 20, 2018 [11 favorites]
“Any time I had a problem, I threw a Molotov cocktail and, boom, I had a different problem." --Jason Mendoza
posted by praemunire at 6:35 AM on April 20, 2018 [11 favorites]
floating a battleship of pretension upon a puddle of actual knowledge and insight.
excuse me I feel personally attacked
posted by Space Kitty at 6:40 AM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
excuse me I feel personally attacked
posted by Space Kitty at 6:40 AM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
“I feel like all of these guys have written a short story called Diary of a Madman.”
🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘
posted by octobersurprise at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘
posted by octobersurprise at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, having read this, I cannot believe that Mayakovsky got the cold-shoulder here. Look at this guy— Does he look happy about this? No, I dare say he does not.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:08 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 7:08 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes, I know, the names are unusual, but somehow that doesn't stop you from enjoying Game of Thrones, does it?
I mean it totally is a lazy stereotype, but when I was reading Game of Thrones I said to myself "this dang story has as many characters as a Russian Novel I'm going to need to start taking notes".
posted by traveler_ at 7:12 AM on April 20, 2018
I mean it totally is a lazy stereotype, but when I was reading Game of Thrones I said to myself "this dang story has as many characters as a Russian Novel I'm going to need to start taking notes".
posted by traveler_ at 7:12 AM on April 20, 2018
But please stop with the "Russian novels, amirite?" shtick; it's ignorant and adds to the world's store of pointless prejudice.
Thank you languagehat for saying this. I shouldn't be surprised by this article or the conversation here but I am.
Eastern European culture and writing isn't the same as western European or North American culture. Of course there are historical commonalities and connections, but it's tiring to see over and over again how our names are hilarious and how no one reads these novels unless they're pretending to be cultured.
Maybe instead of making fun of the novels, and bragging about how you never finished them, engage with them and the culture that created them instead.
posted by A hidden well at 7:12 AM on April 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
Thank you languagehat for saying this. I shouldn't be surprised by this article or the conversation here but I am.
Eastern European culture and writing isn't the same as western European or North American culture. Of course there are historical commonalities and connections, but it's tiring to see over and over again how our names are hilarious and how no one reads these novels unless they're pretending to be cultured.
Maybe instead of making fun of the novels, and bragging about how you never finished them, engage with them and the culture that created them instead.
posted by A hidden well at 7:12 AM on April 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
when I was extremely depressed and my generalized anxiety disorder was way out of control, reading Chekhov felt like I had drifted onto solid land for just a moment. every story of his that I read was like 'hey, look at this person, let's neurotically pick them apart in the exposition and then spend the rest of the story talking about how actually sympathetically human they are and how tragic they are for suffering so much so invisibly.'
but, like anything with literature, I guess everybody's takeaway and engagement is different
posted by runt at 7:15 AM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
but, like anything with literature, I guess everybody's takeaway and engagement is different
posted by runt at 7:15 AM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
(I have TRIED to read Russian novels, but usually give up around mid way through.)
posted by Samizdata at 9:55 PM on April 19
Eponysterical, surely?
posted by Behemoth at 7:21 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Samizdata at 9:55 PM on April 19
Eponysterical, surely?
posted by Behemoth at 7:21 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Unless you’re a character in a David Lodge novel, talking about Russian novels you haven’t read probably does not come up much in daily life.
posted by betweenthebars at 7:31 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 7:31 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wait, what parties do I need to go to to find people who'll discuss Russian novels with me?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:57 AM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:57 AM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee yes! I was just thinking "dang I need to meet Mallory Ortberg's friends, because I'd love to have that particular problem from time to time."
posted by nushustu at 8:13 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 8:13 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Russian literature does not consist of War and Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, and a few Chekhov plays. It is as various as any other; there are long books, short books, funny books, sad books, anything you could possibly want.
This is a good point. At the same time, I think the piece is more about "how much of the classic western canon have you read?" type of one-upsmanship than "are you well versed in Russian literature?"
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:27 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
This is a good point. At the same time, I think the piece is more about "how much of the classic western canon have you read?" type of one-upsmanship than "are you well versed in Russian literature?"
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:27 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
Outside of actual universities, I think it's primarily a function of being in your twenties when everyone is still anxious about not being sure how to prove they're smart since they're not being graded anymore. (The Toast, which I did love, was very nearly the physical incarnation of this anxiety.) Daniel shouldn't have this problem much longer.
posted by praemunire at 8:28 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:28 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've circled back to The Toast every now and again since it closed, but now it's prompting me for credentials. I thought they were rendering it inert but keeping it available. Any idea what gives?
posted by whuppy at 8:48 AM on April 20, 2018
posted by whuppy at 8:48 AM on April 20, 2018
I read a number of Russian novels like a good English major
I feel like they should really consider renaming it "Literature" major, otherwise it's just very confusing.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:56 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel like they should really consider renaming it "Literature" major, otherwise it's just very confusing.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:56 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Another thanks to languagehat for countering this tired opinion. There are family trees and lists of alternate character names for the big classics. Ask for suggestions in your favorite genre! I’d love to talk about Bulgakov with more people, especially Heart of a Dog (funny and brutal) or Fatal Eggs (sharp sci fi). Looking for more women authors? Dig in.
On preview: Eyebrows McGee, let’s take it to Fanfare! I sense a club forming. Emmy Rae, c’mon down.
posted by mrcrow at 8:59 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
On preview: Eyebrows McGee, let’s take it to Fanfare! I sense a club forming. Emmy Rae, c’mon down.
posted by mrcrow at 8:59 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Hey, you chickens, yes, try Bulgakov, The Master and Margarita. The devil comes to Moscow and he's the hero of the book. For slightly more recent novels try Vladimir Voinovich. Wicked satire about Soviet times. All his books are great and funny. Especially, the Chonkin books. He was an everyman fool wandering through Soviet and American society. People from the Soviet days can quote you these books. Then there's Ilf and Petrov - The Twelve Chairs and The Golden Calf.
You will be surprised how intellectual and literary repression can really sharpen the pens of writers. All this stuff about Russian literature comes from somewhere, that huge heaping pile of thick books with unpronounceable names that represents a remarkable body of really good reads.
posted by njohnson23 at 9:15 AM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
You will be surprised how intellectual and literary repression can really sharpen the pens of writers. All this stuff about Russian literature comes from somewhere, that huge heaping pile of thick books with unpronounceable names that represents a remarkable body of really good reads.
posted by njohnson23 at 9:15 AM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'd advise turning the conversation to philosophy, but then you'd have to have read philosophy.
Presocratics: Leave it to the classicists, otherwise they'll embarrass you on the imprecise translations from Greek.
Aristotle: Make sure to say eudaimonia. Oh, and make sure to mention how Aquinas' love inadvertently led to the problems of Copernicus and Galileo. That's a good bit.
Plato: Condescendingly make fun of Robert Pirsig and how he really screwed up Phaedrus. Talk about how most folks don't appreciate the more literary aspects, the nuance and humor. And how there's alternate accounts of Socrates in ...crap. Was it Xenophon? Just say Xenophon.
Descartes: Skip it. Maybe mention how the French still have a Cartesian temperament.
Berkeley: Try to beat everyone to the Samuel Johnson bit about kicking the stone.
Hume: You really shouldn't have zoned out in Rationalism and Empiricism. Well, tomorrow is another day. OR IS IT!!!??? Ha HA! You realize you're talking to yourself, right?
Kant: This is your big one. You actually read the Critique of Pure Reason, none of these other fuckers did. They did the cop out Prolegomena version. That's what EVERYONE does. Talk about how the Critique is like a three dimensional book in your mind's eye. And how everybody misunderstands noumena.
The Existentialists: Leave it to the other folks. particularly folks from other Humanities departments. They'll almost certainly get it all fundamentally wrong and look stupid. Keep your powder dry.
The Phenomenologists: Get a drink. This is 30 minutes of arguing over what the fuck Dasein is, which will devolve into how much of a Nazi Heidegger was, and what Hannah Arendt has to do with it all.
Analytic Philosophy & Logic Just be happy there's no chalkboard here.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:16 AM on April 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
Presocratics: Leave it to the classicists, otherwise they'll embarrass you on the imprecise translations from Greek.
Aristotle: Make sure to say eudaimonia. Oh, and make sure to mention how Aquinas' love inadvertently led to the problems of Copernicus and Galileo. That's a good bit.
Plato: Condescendingly make fun of Robert Pirsig and how he really screwed up Phaedrus. Talk about how most folks don't appreciate the more literary aspects, the nuance and humor. And how there's alternate accounts of Socrates in ...crap. Was it Xenophon? Just say Xenophon.
Descartes: Skip it. Maybe mention how the French still have a Cartesian temperament.
Berkeley: Try to beat everyone to the Samuel Johnson bit about kicking the stone.
Hume: You really shouldn't have zoned out in Rationalism and Empiricism. Well, tomorrow is another day. OR IS IT!!!??? Ha HA! You realize you're talking to yourself, right?
Kant: This is your big one. You actually read the Critique of Pure Reason, none of these other fuckers did. They did the cop out Prolegomena version. That's what EVERYONE does. Talk about how the Critique is like a three dimensional book in your mind's eye. And how everybody misunderstands noumena.
The Existentialists: Leave it to the other folks. particularly folks from other Humanities departments. They'll almost certainly get it all fundamentally wrong and look stupid. Keep your powder dry.
The Phenomenologists: Get a drink. This is 30 minutes of arguing over what the fuck Dasein is, which will devolve into how much of a Nazi Heidegger was, and what Hannah Arendt has to do with it all.
Analytic Philosophy & Logic Just be happy there's no chalkboard here.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:16 AM on April 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
Once upon a time, back when I thought I might actually, seriously, pursue Russian studies, I spent several days lounging about and reading Alexander Kaletski's Metro when I should've been studying for a Russian History final. I was thoroughly absorbed by it at the time—and now that I think of it I'm considering reading it again—but, Reader, you can just imagine how well I did on that exam.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:48 AM on April 20, 2018
posted by octobersurprise at 9:48 AM on April 20, 2018
War and Peace is mocked undeservedly, IMO. It's compulsively readable, I mean, it reminds me of Victor Hugo, you know? Stuff is always happening, and it's all interesting. It's the best! It's more than I can say for many other books of similar length and reputation... coughOneHundredYearsOfKillMeNowcough.
Also nthing the point about diversity* in Russian writing. Y'all need to read yourselves some Svetlana Alexievich and Varlam Shalamov, for example.
*It is fair to note that the "diversity" thing doesn't seem to apply when it comes to a certain tonality that seems to be derived from national character: most great Russian lit does tend to make you want to kill yourself because the universe is cruel and pointless.
posted by MiraK at 9:58 AM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Also nthing the point about diversity* in Russian writing. Y'all need to read yourselves some Svetlana Alexievich and Varlam Shalamov, for example.
*It is fair to note that the "diversity" thing doesn't seem to apply when it comes to a certain tonality that seems to be derived from national character: most great Russian lit does tend to make you want to kill yourself because the universe is cruel and pointless.
posted by MiraK at 9:58 AM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
My advice is to just read Olesha's Envy: it's short, it's hilarious, it's incredible, and it doesn't make most western lists of Russian/Soviet classics, so you just get to collect your "I look smart" points without having to have a tedious discussion. It's a hundred and twenty page hand grenade.
(Seriously: Envy is super good. Read it.)
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:27 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
(Seriously: Envy is super good. Read it.)
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:27 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
To the people who find Russian literature depressing: have you tried reading Pushkin, or Turgenev, or Goncharov, or, for that matter, War and Peace? I mean, sure, sad things happen in those books, but I can't figure out how anyone could read them and come away with the impression that Russian literature is an abyss of wretched misery. And I'm just talking about the big, internationally recognized nineteenth-century writers. Aside from Dostoevsky, whom lots of contemporaries found utterly exhausting, and Gogol, I just don't understand this reaction.
And regarding the old chestnut about how long those Russian novels are: have we collectively forgotten about Dickens and Eliot and Hugo and Dumas? The nineteenth century was an age of serialized novels and writers paid by how much space they could fill in a journal. There were lots of long books.
I don't want to mess up people's fun in this thread, but a lot of these comments sound to me a bit like someone who has read Dracula and Frankenstein and then declared that all nineteenth-century British literature is about monsters.
posted by a certain Sysoi Pafnut'evich at 10:39 AM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
And regarding the old chestnut about how long those Russian novels are: have we collectively forgotten about Dickens and Eliot and Hugo and Dumas? The nineteenth century was an age of serialized novels and writers paid by how much space they could fill in a journal. There were lots of long books.
I don't want to mess up people's fun in this thread, but a lot of these comments sound to me a bit like someone who has read Dracula and Frankenstein and then declared that all nineteenth-century British literature is about monsters.
posted by a certain Sysoi Pafnut'evich at 10:39 AM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Dead Souls is actually pretty funny! Or...at least...I hope it was supposed to be?
posted by praemunire at 11:21 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 11:21 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
But, to be fair, most college-educated American readers' experience of modern Russian literature will be drawn from: War and Peace, Anna Karenina, Crime and Punishment, or Notes from the Underground. Only the first might fairly be described as non-crushingly depressing and bleak. If they're into theater at all, add The Cherry Orchard, sad at best.
One can complain, but most college-educated American readers' experience of modern Spanish, German, and French literature is: nil, except maybe Madame Bovary or One Hundred Years of Solitude. (People will try to front about Proust, but 50% only read Swann's Way and the rest of them not even that.)
posted by praemunire at 11:27 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
One can complain, but most college-educated American readers' experience of modern Spanish, German, and French literature is: nil, except maybe Madame Bovary or One Hundred Years of Solitude. (People will try to front about Proust, but 50% only read Swann's Way and the rest of them not even that.)
posted by praemunire at 11:27 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
(And the Italians would be flat-out nil until Elena Ferrante blew up a couple years ago.)
posted by praemunire at 11:30 AM on April 20, 2018
posted by praemunire at 11:30 AM on April 20, 2018
have you tried reading Pushkin
I did but it was his sappy, bad poetry that makes me think he was like a total fuckboy in his day
posted by runt at 12:36 PM on April 20, 2018
I did but it was his sappy, bad poetry that makes me think he was like a total fuckboy in his day
posted by runt at 12:36 PM on April 20, 2018
Dead Souls is actually pretty funny! Or...at least...I hope it was supposed to be?
The NIN version or the original?
posted by asterix at 12:50 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
The NIN version or the original?
posted by asterix at 12:50 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
> At the same time, I think the piece is more about "how much of the classic western canon have you read?" type of one-upsmanship than "are you well versed in Russian literature?"
That's... an odd idea. It's like responding to someone complaining about "Russians, they're all drunks, amirite?" with "I think that's more about the general human tendency to abuse alcohol." If it were, it probably wouldn't have singled out Russians.
> Seriously: Envy is super good. Read it.
Seriously! Heartily seconded!
> Dead Souls is actually pretty funny! Or...at least...I hope it was supposed to be?
It is! It was idiotically taken as some sort of grim analysis of serfdom and provincial oppression, but it's a hilarious take on human greed and stupidity. Read it without the realist blinders and enjoy. (It may help to read Nabokov's little book on Gogol; he quotes some of the nice bits that are easy to miss on a first reading.)
> I did but it was his sappy, bad poetry that makes me think he was like a total fuckboy in his day
I hope this is a joke, because it has absolutely nothing to do with Pushkin. Please point me to one thing he wrote that was either sappy or bad. I mean, that makes as much sense as talking about Emily Dickinson's "sappy, bad poetry." They were both among the greatest poets this species has produced.
posted by languagehat at 12:51 PM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
That's... an odd idea. It's like responding to someone complaining about "Russians, they're all drunks, amirite?" with "I think that's more about the general human tendency to abuse alcohol." If it were, it probably wouldn't have singled out Russians.
> Seriously: Envy is super good. Read it.
Seriously! Heartily seconded!
> Dead Souls is actually pretty funny! Or...at least...I hope it was supposed to be?
It is! It was idiotically taken as some sort of grim analysis of serfdom and provincial oppression, but it's a hilarious take on human greed and stupidity. Read it without the realist blinders and enjoy. (It may help to read Nabokov's little book on Gogol; he quotes some of the nice bits that are easy to miss on a first reading.)
> I did but it was his sappy, bad poetry that makes me think he was like a total fuckboy in his day
I hope this is a joke, because it has absolutely nothing to do with Pushkin. Please point me to one thing he wrote that was either sappy or bad. I mean, that makes as much sense as talking about Emily Dickinson's "sappy, bad poetry." They were both among the greatest poets this species has produced.
posted by languagehat at 12:51 PM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sergei Dovlatov is my guy. (Him and Gogol.) Try The Suitcase, a funny and moving rummage through the suitcase he emigrated with, or The Compromise, about misadventures as a Soviet journalist. Both are short and you'll be sorry they're over.
Mentioned above, Bulgakov's Heart of a Dog is brilliant, hilarious, and easier to approach than Master and Margarita. (And, yes, shorter.)
posted by chimpsonfilm at 1:47 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Mentioned above, Bulgakov's Heart of a Dog is brilliant, hilarious, and easier to approach than Master and Margarita. (And, yes, shorter.)
posted by chimpsonfilm at 1:47 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
So much Russian literature has helped bring me OUT of my depression. Tolstoy's Resurrection was a turning point for me on a personal-spiritual level. If you're looking for reasons to love humanity and reject cynicism, it's the best thing for it.
Also, Turgenev. Home of the Gentry is beautiful. I have yet to read something of his that wasn't incredible. His short stories are a great place to start. I find it unbelievable that I never once read anything of his in school. Not even Fathers and Sons. Such a shame.
Goncharov's Oblomov is close to my heart. The characters are unforgettable.
Dead Souls was a riot. Just a book that made me happy to be reading.
I'll never understand the reputation that Russian lit is saddled with. I'm only a moderately educated person, but I read a lot and often. Russian authors have seemed to me the most accessible. The last time I was reading Tolstoy during some downtime at work, a (much higher-up) person commented "Yuck!" What do you even say to that? People act very weird just because of a name. Or people think someone is forcing you to read those things. I started enjoying books much more once I got out of my 20th century American Lit bubble.
posted by blixapuff at 3:04 PM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, Turgenev. Home of the Gentry is beautiful. I have yet to read something of his that wasn't incredible. His short stories are a great place to start. I find it unbelievable that I never once read anything of his in school. Not even Fathers and Sons. Such a shame.
Goncharov's Oblomov is close to my heart. The characters are unforgettable.
Dead Souls was a riot. Just a book that made me happy to be reading.
I'll never understand the reputation that Russian lit is saddled with. I'm only a moderately educated person, but I read a lot and often. Russian authors have seemed to me the most accessible. The last time I was reading Tolstoy during some downtime at work, a (much higher-up) person commented "Yuck!" What do you even say to that? People act very weird just because of a name. Or people think someone is forcing you to read those things. I started enjoying books much more once I got out of my 20th century American Lit bubble.
posted by blixapuff at 3:04 PM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
What do you even say to that?
I think you just take quiet refuge in the fact that if anyone has a civil service job in Russian literature, there is a very good chance that their boss is a fool. So many gelatinous mediocrities whom people have to address as "Your Excellency" and who would probably have reacted with a similar "yuck."
posted by a certain Sysoi Pafnut'evich at 4:14 PM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think you just take quiet refuge in the fact that if anyone has a civil service job in Russian literature, there is a very good chance that their boss is a fool. So many gelatinous mediocrities whom people have to address as "Your Excellency" and who would probably have reacted with a similar "yuck."
posted by a certain Sysoi Pafnut'evich at 4:14 PM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
"I did but it was his sappy, bad poetry that makes me think he was like a total fuckboy in his day"
...
...
fight me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:54 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
...
...
fight me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:54 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
"I turned. She was in a light, saffron-yellow dress of the ancient model. This was a thousand times more cruel than if she had worn nothing"
-D-503. from 'We', Yevgeny Zamyatin
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on April 20, 2018
-D-503. from 'We', Yevgeny Zamyatin
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on April 20, 2018
Bulgakov is great, Master & Margarita is one of my favorite books -- and one of the two novels I managed to work my way through in Russian, the other being Crime & Punishment. Well, and of course a bunch of Pushkin, because кто не любит Пушкин? But Master & Margarita is SOOOO accessible, and very different from Dostoyevsky/Tolstoy, if you've read those and were kinda meh on them. Bulgakov might be another one to try!
If you haven't read Pushkin, you are missing out on like a Shakespeare/Dante/Basho talent (with a similar level of impact on the language). Моцарт и Сальери (Mozart & Salieri) by Pushkin is one of the pieces of literature that I think about most often and reference a lot (to far too frequent blank stares, I gotta say). And I'm not alone! There's an opera, and a play, and a movie that you miiiiiiiight have heard of, and basically you should go read the Pushkin version that started it, it's not long!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:07 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you haven't read Pushkin, you are missing out on like a Shakespeare/Dante/Basho talent (with a similar level of impact on the language). Моцарт и Сальери (Mozart & Salieri) by Pushkin is one of the pieces of literature that I think about most often and reference a lot (to far too frequent blank stares, I gotta say). And I'm not alone! There's an opera, and a play, and a movie that you miiiiiiiight have heard of, and basically you should go read the Pushkin version that started it, it's not long!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:07 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
fight me.
Hey now, there's an active metatalk about violent language!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:11 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hey now, there's an active metatalk about violent language!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:11 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
" have we collectively forgotten about Dickens and Eliot and Hugo and Dumas?"
BALZAC,BALZAC,BALZAC.
posted by clavdivs at 5:16 PM on April 20, 2018
BALZAC,BALZAC,BALZAC.
posted by clavdivs at 5:16 PM on April 20, 2018
'Моцарт и Сальери'
this always reminds of Stanisława Przybyszewskas' play about Danton, which too was made into a movie. Its far better history imo
posted by clavdivs at 5:40 PM on April 20, 2018
this always reminds of Stanisława Przybyszewskas' play about Danton, which too was made into a movie. Its far better history imo
posted by clavdivs at 5:40 PM on April 20, 2018
I will say that the beginning of Brothers Karamazov was 400 VERY uphill pages that was a real struggle for me, but once you hit that midpoint, the other 400 is like a luge trip downhill where you can't stop even if you wanted to. Like, it was my first visit to Switzerland (during a break from college) and I could not pause to look at the Alps because I needed to know about Dmitri's interrogation.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:30 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:30 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Dovlatov and Bulgakov: yes and yes! Also Venedikt Yerofeyev (or Erofeev)—his immortal Moscow-Petushki (translated as Moscow to the End of the Line and Moscow Stations) is a literary kick in the head that will have you laughing and crying and wanting a drink and wanting to swear off booze all at the same time. (And it's short!)
> I will say that the beginning of Brothers Karamazov was 400 VERY uphill pages that was a real struggle for me
My rule is that the longer a novel is, the more time I'll give it to get going. Proust is another one you have to persevere with (lots of people hated the first couple of volumes when they were first published, not realizing they were only seeing the trunk and left hind foot of the elephant).
> кто не любит Пушкин?
Actually, it's "кто не любит Пушкина?" Animates have the accusative the same as the genitive!
posted by languagehat at 6:27 AM on April 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
> I will say that the beginning of Brothers Karamazov was 400 VERY uphill pages that was a real struggle for me
My rule is that the longer a novel is, the more time I'll give it to get going. Proust is another one you have to persevere with (lots of people hated the first couple of volumes when they were first published, not realizing they were only seeing the trunk and left hind foot of the elephant).
> кто не любит Пушкин?
Actually, it's "кто не любит Пушкина?" Animates have the accusative the same as the genitive!
posted by languagehat at 6:27 AM on April 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are tons of famous Russian novels I haven't read, but I'm long past the stage of trying to fake it. It's not worth it. If it comes up, I'll say, "Oh, I haven't read that," and then I get to see if the people I'm with are the kind who will (1) still be able to have a conversation with me about it, (2) lecture me boringly about it, (3) pleasantly change the subject, or (4) act like jerks about the fact I haven't read it.
Of the Russian novels I have read, favorites include The Master and Margarita, Crime and Punishment, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch, We, Oblomov, The Twelve Chairs, Night Watch, Day Watch, Twilight Watch, and The Luzhin Defense. None are particularly difficult reads, honestly.
Roadside Picnic is on my To-Be-Read pile right now; I'm looking forward to that.
posted by kyrademon at 11:39 AM on April 22, 2018
Of the Russian novels I have read, favorites include The Master and Margarita, Crime and Punishment, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch, We, Oblomov, The Twelve Chairs, Night Watch, Day Watch, Twilight Watch, and The Luzhin Defense. None are particularly difficult reads, honestly.
Roadside Picnic is on my To-Be-Read pile right now; I'm looking forward to that.
posted by kyrademon at 11:39 AM on April 22, 2018
Roadside Picnic is great! Weird, eerie, and very affecting w/regard to aging and family.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 7:17 AM on April 23, 2018
posted by chimpsonfilm at 7:17 AM on April 23, 2018
I blame Constance Garnett! Credit where it's due for introducing Tolstoy et al to English readers, but her translations seem really dated now. The Volokhonsky/Pevear translations are a lot more fun than the dry versions I grew up on.
Gogol is freakin' hilarious. I quite like the Russian sci-fi I've read - Roadside Picnic is indeed lovely.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:26 AM on April 24, 2018
Gogol is freakin' hilarious. I quite like the Russian sci-fi I've read - Roadside Picnic is indeed lovely.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:26 AM on April 24, 2018
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(I have TRIED to read Russian novels, but usually give up around mid way through.)
posted by Samizdata at 9:55 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]